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Löfstedt Review - REFUND OF HSE FEES
mediaid Offline
#1 Posted : 26 April 2012 20:01:30(UTC)
mediaid


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It would appear that the Löfstedt Review concluded that the Health & Safety (First Aid) Regulation 1981 gives HSE no lawful authority to approve First Aid training providers and intend to deregulate HSE approval. That being the case since HSE have been charging training providers for HSE approval one can only conclude that HSE had no lawful authority to charge organisations and I for one will be contacting HSE should they decide to carry out the Löfstedt Review recommendations (which is highly likely). I will also be seeking support from my trade organisations and hope all other HSE approved training providers do the same.



It is clear that if the following the Löfstedt Review if Löfstedt is correct that HSE have been acting Ultra vires and so had no right to charge training providers. 





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Calvin Offline
#2 Posted : 26 April 2012 21:20:57(UTC)
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It's also interesting to note that

HSE /Loefsted review claim nothing has been decided yet on how first aid will be run/approved moving forward, yet Ofqual bodies are moving ahead with a QCF linked first aid at work with HSE input/blessing



stitch up me thinks!

will cost your average business more as we end up paying awarding bodies more for every certificate, or it becomes a back street ask no questions with no regulation!



I await the first court case  for failure to have appropriate first aiders ......
JonAcc Offline
#4 Posted : 27 April 2012 11:15:53(UTC)
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Bingers Offline
#3 Posted : 27 April 2012 16:56:38(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Calvin Go to Quoted Post
It's also interesting to note that

HSE /Loefsted review claim nothing has been decided yet on how first aid will be run/approved moving forward, yet Ofqual bodies are moving ahead with a QCF linked first aid at work with HSE input/blessing







I think you could have predicted the change from HSE to Ofqual the best part of ten years ago.  Lofstedt has speeded up the process.



Its no surprise that the Awarding Organisations are moving ahead with an accredited FAW qualification as their centres will expect there to be one and these things don't happen overnight.  Even if there is deregulation, those employers who want a nationally recognised/accredited course need to have that option.  Some people might choose to send their employees on a course with Joe Bloggs down the road who has made it up and has no accreditation as they are the cheaper option, but others will look for some proof of national recognition.
mediaid Offline
#5 Posted : 28 April 2012 10:29:48(UTC)
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Is this the same reputable Ofqual awarding bodies that gave answers to teachers (provided they paid and attended a course). Ofqual is just a Government QUANGO and as this government is seeking to reduce Quangos and admin etc perhaps Ofqual days are also numbered. Lets face it there is talk of removing examination from awarding bodies and the national curriculum from Ofqual controls so perhaps getting rid of Ofqual is a Government objective. This Government is very keen on deregulating everything.



The major problem for first aid training is that St Johns and Red Cross are seen as the national providers and HSE approved organisations gave some form of standard to HSE first aid courses deregulating first approval will only benefit the VAS in my view. 



The future will be interesting but my main question is if HSE have been charging for a service they had no legal right to enforce and charge for then HSE will have to refund any money obtained illegally.



Richard 
minnymins Offline
#6 Posted : 03 May 2012 13:01:44(UTC)
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This conversation has been of great interest to me as I have recently looked into the possibility of my organisation becoming a First Aid Training Provider.  Getting a clear answer on how to do this at the moment is proving a challenge to say the least!



Can I take it then that whilst presently approval is done through HSE, this is going to be deregulated shortly (when??!!).  Full fees will still be charged with no assurance of any refund if the term will be less than the 5 year approval.  Is there any idea on how organisations such a myself obtain approval - if indeed approval will be needed at all!!



Any advice anyone can offer will be much appreciated as this is becoming quite confusing for a newby!
Bingers Offline
#7 Posted : 03 May 2012 17:42:43(UTC)
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Basically there is no point in going through HSE approval as they are getting out of it in the next 18 months max. Whilst we don't know for sure what they will decide (they should be announcing next month) if you want to offer nationally accredited first aid qualifications, you would need to find an Ofqual approved awarding organisation who will give you approval to deliver courses certificated by them. There are 16 of them and you can find a list of them on the following link showing who offers EFAW:

http://register.ofqual.g...&SBForSearch=Search

Cut and paste will probably work better than retyping it!

Go down the page and you will see all the AOs, clicking on their qualification number and then the name of the AO gives more information about them and you should also be able to find a link to what other qualifications they deliver so you can see if they are first aid specific, have other specialisations or are jack-of-all-trades. Then you have to do your research and decide what you want from your AO and see which match up best. Some will may be cheaper, some more expensive, some may have hidden charges which need more investigation. Some will give more support, some will say they have less interference in what you do. Your best bet is to shop around and see who can give you what you need.
PrivAmb Offline
#8 Posted : 17 May 2012 19:11:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mediaid Go to Quoted Post
It would appear that the Löfstedt Review concluded that the Health & Safety (First Aid) Regulation 1981 gives HSE no lawful authority to approve First Aid training providers and intend to deregulate HSE approval. That being the case since HSE have been charging training providers for HSE approval one can only conclude that HSE had no lawful authority to charge organisations and I for one will be contacting HSE should they decide to carry out the Löfstedt Review recommendations (which is highly likely). I will also be seeking support from my trade organisations and hope all other HSE approved training providers do the same.



It is clear that if the following the Löfstedt Review if Löfstedt is correct that HSE have been acting Ultra vires and so had no right to charge training providers. 










Here is the problem.  Those people who registered handed over their money to pay for hotels and expenses of a money for old rope section of a quango.  They did so willingly.  The argument would be that those people handed that money over under duress - ie risk of prosecution for not handing over money, but the duress must be both real and proximate.  The HSE defence will be that they have never once prosecuted anyone ever and have never even uttered so much as a threat that they would.  Every time a person or company has been reported for delivering FAW courses when not registered, they did nothing, so there was never any risk of prosecution so the threat of duress fails.  Of course had anyone ever challenged their authority before this report then a court decision would have opened up the way for everyone to recover their ransom. 



Due to falling revenue and the risk of being got rid of, the FAAMS dept decided off its own bat - and again without lawful authority, to "regulate" the 1 day appointed person course, and renamed it the EFAW.  Now realising some time ago that they were down the road, they closed the office, shut the phones and the email off and now can only be communicated with via conventional mail.



With regard to Ofqual - some people on the site seem very fond of it, unless it is a legal requirement to have this "membership", why should anyone hand over a proportion of their hard earned to yet another quango?  We've already seen the reality of the much hyped HPC and more recently the CQC.  It has made no difference, and has in fact made everything worse.  The HPC have never prosecuted anyone, and the CQC are a proven bunch of toothless muppets who are widely recognised as a failing and not fit for purpose mickey mouse outfit.



I would be interested to hear of any developments should anyone issue proceedings against the HSE, but I fear that if it ever reached court, and with the sums involved dating back to 1981, the court would issue a policy decision allowing the claim to succeed but awarding no compensation as the amount owed by this state funded organisation would stretch to very many millions and the cost would have to be borne by the tax payer.


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