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Good evening all -
Am I missing something or are we all going to have to join one of the band of brothers... and pay them every time we teach a delegate in order to continue running our First Aid businesses? i.e. AOFAQA aka AOFA, QUALSAFE aka First On Scene, HABC aka Train2Train and FAWW? aka NUCCOetc. ???
I'm amazed how quickly they seem to have organised themselves and how even quicker we'll all be paying one of them if not all of them for a certificate...
Somebody please add..
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Originally Posted by: whatsupdoc 
I'm amazed how quickly they seem to have organised themselves
Well some saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. The one I use became an Awarding Body in 2005 and I have been benefitting from the support they give (as well as their certificates) since 2007. I am biased though as I think they are doing a good job, so do the vast majority of their trainers otherwise they'd have jumped ship long ago and new people wouldn't have been flocking to them even before Lofsted. Should find out next month if you're going to have to join one of the "band of brothers" or if you can do it on your unregulated own. Interesting times.
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Interesting times indeed... and thank you for posting..
..And while I can see the method in all the madness, I can't help thinking that the madness will soon need a method!
My concerns are, and have been, that the OFQUAL route is or will be too expensive for the majority of small training providers and while (as I heard) with OFQUAL you can't be the poacher and the game keeper - Clearly you can!
The inevatable consequence of this route is more costs for all unregulated companies (I assume even those that have an HSE Approval too once it's removed)...
For those who saw the writing on the wall, well done But I don't ever remeber being advised to set up a separate company, get it OFQUAL recognised and get billing all your competition for their own certificates... because you will now be supplying them!
Wish I had though!
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The HSE strongly indicated that they were going the Ofqual a couple of years ago well before Loftstedt . We thought long and hard before taking the route of becoming an Ofqual Awarding Organisation (AO). However for the AoFA to progress, like the majority of associations we would need to be able to develop our own qualifications so we took the plunge.
As for costs, it’s a charge per trainee, so it will cost more than the HSE route. However, it also gives credibility and allows the training provider to expand their range of courses outside first aid. Overall I think Ofqual will also raise standards and that’s got to be a good thing.
As for Gamekeeper and Poacher, Ofqual does require that you manage the conflict of interest so to become both trainer and AO most training providers split into two businesses. We (AoFAQ) do not do first aid training, but we still thought it better to split.
I think in the future most training providers will be registered with multiple AOs – horses for courses. As for difficulty / burden; if you ask most training providers who are already registered with an AO, they do not see any problems - there’s been a lot of confusion between becoming an AO and becoming a training centre under an AO. We found becoming an AO to be very expensive, difficult and time consuming!
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Thank you admin, but still not entirely enlightend...
I appreciate what you say and the benefits to individuals with no approval that the awards may bring... but I think one of the main concerns for those companies who already hold HSE Approval is the increase in costs to them... And the decreased costs to those training companies who are now awarding bodies. (albeit in another name).
These companies will not have to pass on an increase in any charges to their clients, and anyone elses for that matter, when they quote as they already have the OFQUAL award! So how are the HSE Approved companies at present, supposed to compete in what is already... (thanks to the approve your courses with us, and franchises it here etc.) an over saturated and very over crowded sector.
All these various franchises and umbrella agreements etc. have in my opinion done nothing to raise standards, and therefore why will OFQUAL be any different.
Turkeys and Christmas... I said it then and I say it now....
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Point of Order..
The decision has not yet been made by the HSE as to if it should be taking the Ofqual rout or if there should be an industry based "Approval" body working much the way that HSE works now.
Unfortunately up until now HSE have not seen fit to ask First Aid Training companies what they would like, there have been informal discussions with some First Aid bodies but I for one would like to see the HSE take a sounding of all the First Aid companies that are currently registered with them.
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Hi Witchfinder - Thank you for your point of order...
I just want a level playing field with a simple and cost effective method of Approval.... And I don't think OFQUAL is it!
I too think it has been a real shame that there has still been no real dialogue between the HSE and us HSE Approved providers, other than hearsay and scare mongering from OFQUAL awarding bodies, industry associations and Gossip.
Lets hope it's not an opportunity lost, as you say no decision has even been made yet.
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You are right that organisations that are both Ofqual Approved and also run training courses will have a price advantage. However, it will not be as much as you might think. Running an Awarding Organisation (AO) is very time consuming and you need additional staff which costs money.
Running a HSE ‘Franchise’ operation is considerably easier than the Ofqual equivalent. We have about 300 HSE ‘franchise’ centres which we are moving across to AoFAQ Centres. We process about 25,000 certificates per year. However, as mentioned before, which I think is important point, we don’t do training so our centres are not subsidising their competition.
In the end it will be the employer (customer) who decides as it still remains their responsibility to comply with the FA Regs etc.
As a parallel, if you take the food hygiene course, I don’t think that’s regulated but everybody uses the CIEH AO. For employers it’s a no-brainer, for the sake of a couple of pounds it gives peace of mind as no HSE / Local Authority inspector will question the validity of an Ofqual qualification.
I’ve already seen new organisations popping up to make money out of ‘Approving/Regulating’ training providers in the aim to circumvent Ofqual. But in this situation who regulates the regulator and what validity will they hold?
I can see that the HSE could recommend Ofqual organisations (it’s hinted that since the introduction of the EFAW) however, the HSE recommending a non-governed ‘Approving’ organisation? - I think not, the risk (bad publicity) would be just too high!
One thing to remember, the HSE has never held the remit to look after training providers (including jobs). Their remit is to ensure that ‘training meets a certain standard’.
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I run many no AO food hygiene courses, some employers want CIEH etc but certainly not all.
I don't see how HSE a government body can recommend any system either industry or Ofqual as its not in their remit to recommend one system over another.
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I'd echo that Mediaid
we run equal quantities of Awarding body and non awarding body courses in H&S and food safety..you don't neccessarily need an Ofqaul certificate to prove training is done!
I can't see how the govt can tell us to use Ofqual - that is forcing a quango monopoly!!
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The HSE has always ‘ recommended’ things either through codes of practice or approved code of practice (ACOPs). The latter having more of a legal standing. Hence HSE first aid kits, refresher courses etc. In the end the employer will decide. I would suggest that the larger companies will opt for Ofqual and the smaller ones going for price. This however, does tend to mean then smaller business/ employers going to St John or RedX as they run most open courses. Further, I wouldn’t expect the VAS ( SJA of RedX etc) going for Ofqual approval as their name / status will carry them which in turn would mean no certificate fees. However, price is less important to the VAS as they get customers on their credibility not their price. Form a business point of view you could consider Ofqual as a marketing expense at if gives credibility to your training business and confidence to you customer. This would fall typically within the average marketing budget of 5% - 10% of sales.
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Dave - Yes HSE has recommended things such as first aid kit contents but the don't recommend manufactures or suppliers - Government organisations are not allowed to give such commercial recommendations.
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Thank you for keeping this one going...
I think a lot of the emphasis surrounding the proposed HSE changes coming from these "AO's" all comes down to the word credibility and how much we will need them, however it is the training companies themselves who are the ones that will indeed give the AO's the credibility that they so much yearn for... after all... For a long time now they've been the ones saying....
"Do a 3 day First Aid at Work course with us over 5 days, we'll give you a PTLLS certificate as well... and hey presto you can now teach first aid!" Under our approval of course and at £5 a pop!
If this is credible or indeed a mark of the standard we can expect in the future, companies who are at present HSE Approved in their own right are also right to feel pretty agrieved and woefully short changed.
Let's hope common sense provails and everyone realises we teach first aid... not Quatum Physics and as the AO's have proven with their synical approvals, you don't need a degree!
So when ot comes to credibility I feel pretty sure that most companies will know if they've employed a complete numptie to deliver their training.
I think most will look for an ISO 9001 Award... If at all... I can't remember the last time someone asked me about HSE Approval but more and more want to know if you have an ISO?
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I disagree. ISO9001 only relates to your 'paperwork' and 'back office' systems; it bears no relation to your ability or qualifications to train.
One this change comes into force the defualt setting will be St John, followed by the likes of City & Guids etc (AO's again).
Ah, but you say "I had HSE approval in my own right for xxx years" - so what. I had a Ford Capri once it doesn't mean I ever had a part in the 'Professionals' (showing my age now).
You may be fantastic at training but frankly I don't have the time or will to go though your portfolio, call previous clients for refrences and check up on you. The easiest way for me, as an employer, to ascertain the 'credibility' of a training organisation is to choose one that is either a) St John/Red Cross or b) approved by an Awarding Organisation like City & Guids.
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Thank you Goria for your considered comments... And I agree! An ISO award is a paper chase and costly quarteley audit, and I expect no different to what we can also expect from the OFQUAL Route. Having been audited by both the CIEH and City & Guilds, (Of which we are accredited centres amongst others) the only breathing space has been the First Aid element of our training.
From a first aid instructors point of view I can see why the AO route is beneficial, but I don't believe for one second you as an HSE Approved provider would want the added cost and expense that is inevatably going to come our way once we have yet another accreditation to deal with.
if I were me, alone, all bt myself and not employing staff and not trying to maintanin a company that has up until now competed fairly with my peers and worked well within the industry, I probably wouldnt care which route we take, but 3000 certificates a year even at a fiver a time is a lot of money!
Anyway it is great to see that this one has some legs, (and I loved my Ford Capri back in the day) but the posts are not and were not intended to have anything to do with ISO... My bag for introducing it... as an example of even more paperwork! So apologies. But it is the future of the first aid approval that the posts are about.
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Hi all
I wrote to my MP who raised the points I raised with him about HSE and the changes to First Aid approval. My MP raised these concerns with Chris Grayling MP, Minister for Employment. Chris Grayling has stated that there will be three options for providers as detailed below.
Trade Body approval and monitored system (similar to HSE system), Ofqual Awards via Awarding Bodies or Stand alone relying on providers quality and reputation
It is for those who commission the training to decide on the appropriate provider. It seems likely that that the current EFAW & FAW syllabus seem OK and will operate in the same vein as current practice.
There will be a further consultation but Chris Grayling has received many letters/talks from Industry, First Aid Trade Bodies, Ofqual Awarding Bodies, Trade Unions, VAS and many training providers and the 3 options above seem the likely choice. HSE will hold a public consultation later in the year before introducing any changes.
I feel the initial Government intention was Ofqual route but following many concerns raised has decided to follow Lofstedt in his report and totally removed the need for HSE approval for first aid training providers.
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Originally Posted by: mediaid Trade Body approval and monitored system (similar to HSE system), Ofqual Awards via Awarding Bodies or Stand alone relying on providers quality and reputation Just one question with the "trade body route" - who regulates that? Ofqual (albeit a govt quango) have statutory enforcement and fining powers. And don't forget if your client is applying for funding they don't have a choice - they have to use a regulated (Ofqual/QCF) qualification. Those providers who are currently HSE approved and decide to go it alone are potentially better off than those who choose quasi-regulation with a trade body. Those, of course, who are already approved by an awarding organisation would, in my view, have a better quality marque of the three options. BTW if you are already approved by C&G, CIEH etc for food hygiene you'd have to be silly not to follow thier processes for adding First Aid to your approval, surely?
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Thanks for adding but... BTW... Marmite... The cost implications of running your First Aid Courses through the CIEH, City and Guilds etc. would be the silly bit... OK if you're only doing a few EFAW's and FAW's but very expensive if you're doing a lot of them?
Food Hygiene etc. are already costed with the accreditation fee included and up until now there has been no conflict or indeed conflict of interest between the AO's and the training companies regarding these courses! But with a number of First Aid Training Companies and Associations (who don't teach... albeit through choice only, as they wouldn't be able to hold an HSE Approval if they didn't do some training!) the conflict of interest is there and clear to see.
I appreciate that change is a coming... But hopefully for the better for all tarining providers regardless of size.
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At this point in time none of us know the details of what will happen, even I don’t know and I’ve been involved directly with the HSE etc. Personally however, I believe that the main benefactor will be St John, after all no one has ever got the sack for using them. This is strange as they are more expensive than the independent trainers and not necessarily the best. When the changes are finally introduced, there will be a lot of misinformation circulated to employers and if we are not careful this will cause confusion and employers will shy away from the independent sector and select SJA as a safe heaven. Costs are important in any purchase, but confidence is even more so. Certificates will add to costs but investing in confidence is a lot cheaper than losing customers. If we get to the position where employers will only be confident with AO approved training centres, then this will improve standards and minimise competition. Failing that you will be in competition with everyone who can read a first aid book and even e-learning at £10 a throw!
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Dave
I tend to agree with you a bit but some AO (not AOFA who appear more stringent in standards) ofer a FAW course and a bolt on day or two and away you go teaching first aid, health & Safety etc so even AO are only interested in selling places and money (as we all are) but some OFQUAL approved organisation have even been knowen to sell exam questions before the are sent out.
I do agree that St Johns will benefit and many organisations use them owing to their charity status and the line it must be a st Johns course but then that is for us and our representative bodies to dispel but don't seem to in my view.
All first aid industry bodies must highlight with Government departments and Ministers the unfairness in Government bodies saying things like a first aid course run by st johns, red cross etc as this happens to no other industry eg NHS saying buy health food from shops like ASDAs but why have our representative bodies not effectively tackled this with Ministers. I know FOFATO has stopped HSE recommending St Johns.
The next few months will be very interesting for AO, first aid industry bodies and the private first aid training sector lets hope the representitive bodies are up to the task.
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