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Go Carting
thatjonesboy Offline
#1 Posted : 13 June 2012 18:43:53(UTC)
thatjonesboy


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Hello all, my forst post on the forum, and I have a couple of questions I would appreciate some help with. I have held an FAW for around 6 years. I have recently been asked by a friend to provide (paid) First Aid cover at a local Go Carting track. It is a practice day, not a race day, but it may not just be a one off, it might be 5 or 6 days over the year.  My friend (who holds an EMT qualification) seems to think I my FAW is sufficient qualification to cover the event, however I have some concerns as I am not familiar with the regulations in this type of work. Is a single FAW sufficient to cover this event? Since children would be at the event do i need an ADDITIONAL CRB check (I have to have an enhanced CRB check to do my day to day job in education). Also would I need to take out insurance as a paid first aider through someone like these http://www.firstaidinsurance.co.uk/  would it be sufficient just to join The Association of First Aiders? I have done a fair bit of reading but I am struggling to work it all out, as you can probably tell. I want to everything above board or not at all. Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.
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speckles Offline
#2 Posted : 13 June 2012 20:15:19(UTC)
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First of all welcome to the forum.

You have asked lots of questions and I will try to answer them to the best of my knowledge

Firstly there are Kart Tracks and Kart Tracks Kart Tracks that Run under THE MSA (Motor Sport Association) banner sets out minimum cover for its race days.  They do not issue permits for practice days so there is no "standard" as for other organisations I cannot really comment.



One problem for people like me who do some organising of event cover is there is no defined standard for an EMT so your friend may have done a full IHCD course or a five day course or something in between. 



If you are getting paid then and if you are not working for an organisation then you definitely need insurance and this is where it gets "fun" most insurers will cover you for what you have been trained to do. So if you feel that you could prove you could manage a 10 year old with a suspected spinal  injury whilst they are still in there upturned Kart with you current training then you'll be OK 



It would be up to whoever is employing you to get a CRB check done. And they should do.


thatjonesboy Offline
#3 Posted : 13 June 2012 21:12:18(UTC)
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Thank you speckles, that has put my mind at ease a little, in some respects. I did not want to think my friend would put me in a dodgy position knowingly or not. I discussed my concerns with some first aid trainers I happened to meet today and they starting saying all sorts, even started on about the quality care comission! The go Karting is MSA Karting but it is not a race day. On race day there is an ambulance with two EMTs and an additional EMT (my friend). I am starting to get to grips with the variation in 'EMT' courses as I have been looking to upgrade from EMT. I will check out what insurance my friend has, and if it covers me. If it does not I will take out some cover myself. I like this guy, he has a long and respectable history of working as a fire fighter.  I trust him not to do anything knowingly underhand, but I also know he is not so great with detail and fine print. I would like to think that I know my limitations with regards to when it's time to call the emergency services.
medrocktraining Offline
#4 Posted : 13 June 2012 21:14:25(UTC)
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To expand on the good advice Speckles has given.

My advice is don't do it! Once you accept payment to provide this kind of event cover you require a minimum scale of equipment, training, experience and insurance. Once money changes hand a formal contract then exists between you and the organiser, and you will automatically take on a medico-legal responsibility to have all of the above, and as Speckles says, unless you are well versed in the spinal extrication of casualties from upturned carts (essentially an RTC), and have the equipment to do so you really are leaving yourself wide open to litigation. If you get something clinically wrong, the patient will almost certainly fixate their legal aggression on you, not the organiser.

There are far more experienced than I at medical event cover (Jonnac where are you?) but if you are a 'basic' first aider with minimal experience at this sort of potential trauma this kind of work should be avoided by all except the experienced.

Sorry to sound so negative

Paul

PS Welcome to the forum
thatjonesboy Offline
#5 Posted : 13 June 2012 21:34:03(UTC)
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Thanks Paul, don't apologise for sounding negative, if this is a really bad idea then I need to know.
JonAcc Offline
#6 Posted : 14 June 2012 01:26:57(UTC)
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Sorry folk, been busy running staff training this evening.



Firefighter friend/not good on the small print = alarm bells



Some simple points:

HSE do not accept standalone FAW as fit for event work

No standard to EMT courses. Loads of companies sell you a 5-day EMT ticket. Knowledge gained may be good, but let me re-quote an example I quoted a company on here a few years ago defending calling their 5-day "off the streets" course qualification an EMT. My crewmate and I attended a call a few years ago on a nationally notorious road, on which we have attended numerous serious incidents, two of which have been fatals. Four in a car, driver claims to have been swiped o/s/f by a coach which did not stop. Tried to control the car, which ricocheted of the centre armco, crossed four lanes and t-boned n/s armco. Four up, youngest the driver - almost 70. The other three over 70, one wheelchair-bound. Given MOI, I immediately made ambulances three more while my mate started a rapid assessment. Two needed our full attention, one was quite poorly, last one not too bad. Ambo 2 arrived in just under 15, Ambo 3 another 10, and ambo 4 a further 15. If someone claiming to be an EMT turned up while we were trying to manage all four and offered to help, I would expect them to be carrying out any of the tasks we did that day - do an ecg, deal with DIB/hypoxia titrating O2 on a COPD patient, collaring, extrication, boarding to name a few things. If they can't they are not an EMT. Given this example, you can assess your own (and your mate's) skill against the criteria above. You will need a number of these skills to do the job justice



Unfortunately, there are a number of people who have got involved in providing medical cover under situations which just develop, and this sound like one. People justify their presence in a number of way - nothing much ever happens/if it does it's minor/I can always manage until the funbus arrives/etc. Organisers are happy to get a service on the cheap. But by the law of averages, the more you do any event, the greater the chance of something extremely serious happening. And the longer they have gone on and it hasn't happened, the greater the chance it will happen soon. And it doesn't have to be the actual participants. Our service attends around 100 martial arts events a year, from minor club stuff to Internationals, from WM Clubs to places like Wembley Arena, NEC, Earls Court, Excel (e.g. at the finals of World Series last week at Excel). Yet some of our most serious (and life-threatening) cases came from the punters!



As has been said, you will need event cover insurance. Your insurers will probably expect that a proper risk assessment will have been carried out on an event you attend, or that you will have done it, to assure yourself that you are suitably qualified for the job, otherwise you are likely to be acting beyond your skill level, in which case if it goes bent, they will bring out the barge-pole. Who carried out the RA for these practice days, what was their qualification for carrying it out? Is it written down, or just in someone's head? What does it say about skill levels? Do you meet that level?



I haven't seen your event or RA, but my reaction on thinking "motor-sport" has an Ambulance and Crew down straight away, and with that comes the involvement of the Care Quality Commission. Can you imagine that F1 practice days just have a couple of first aiders? So why should any other branch of motorsport receive a lower standard of care?



I get accused of being negative towards people wanting to get involved in event cover. It isn't negativity as such, it's realism and my efforts to maintain standards in an area where too many people are prepared to take short-cuts. Please think long and hard about this offer, tempting though it may be to earn a few extra (probably tax-free) quid. As has been said, if a job goes bent, be assured the victim or their family will be looking for someone to blame.

And in the word of that old National Lottery ad - it could be you!
TLC Offline
#7 Posted : 14 June 2012 11:11:14(UTC)
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A local team near to me are EMT’s two of them and they think that they are far better than anyone else, but trust me I would not trust them with dogs let alone human life, in fact before the ambulance service went onto digital radio, the team have been seen to attend incidents stating that they had just come across it, (with a scanner hiding)


That is not to say that all EMT’s are like that and with good solid training and ongoing development, the role can be fulfilled well by most competent people.


I work for the NHS as a ambo emt – I have to say that despite an excellent course over months when I went out on the road I knew nothing and that time and experience has given me the skills to deal with most situations, however you are always learning till the day you retire.


I also went to a horse jumping event and had a good chat with the first aid team, who had one response bag, no spinal gear, no medical gas, I don’t think that they had a blanket, they laughed saying nothing ever happens on the event IT’S NOT WORTH DRAGGING ALL THE KIT OUT ?


One day in a coroner’s court they might regret that statement.


Your chap from the fire service will have a lot of experience at chopping up cars in a safe and effective manner, and will have some good skills that you can use, carts are different from cars so if I was you those written risk assessments will be must.


You will also need kit for spine care, wound care, fractures, oxygen, analgesia, clinical waste, casualty report forms, put that together with the cost of insurance, crb you will need a few more events to make it cost effective, Good Luck


    


 

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