|
 Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 01/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 8
Points: 30
Location: United Kingdom
|
Must say can only support the BHF in trying to get untrained people to try and do something instead of just ringing for an ambulance and attempting cpr while they wait. However, I have found that clients are asking if the protocol has changed and some initial confussion from new students who think the tv is right and mouth to mouth is not necessary anymore.
Is the message slightly misleading in the advert ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 261
Points: 783
|
Any confusion can only be compounded by your confusion. The BHF are trying to get people to ring the ambulance and perform compression only CPR what other message are you seeing in this advert that is different from you saying "instead of of just ringing for an ambulance and attempting CPR while they wait"?
The advert also tries to get you to the BHF website where more information is available. I agree that the target audience could be a bit clearer but they do only have 40 seconds to get the message across.
As for the classroom issue, a good explanation of the benefits of full CPR and quotation of the UKRC guidelines should put peoples mind at rest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,270
Points: 3,810
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
|
Marty
I thnik the problem is that it is not those of us in the training arena who are getting confused, it's Mr J Public. I am aware of instances already where "works first aiders" are thinking the procedure has changed. Remember, these people's lives are not steeped in the world of pre-hospital care, as is ours.
I am also concerned that it also perpetuates the myth that a few bangs on the chest and the patient will recover. We may know this is unlikely, but I have watched it, and the patient appears to recover after a few compressions and sits up. OK, I have done enough resuses to know, but Mr J P does not have this luxury of experience. Many of them do not address anything "first aid" until their requal comes around
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 780
Points: 2,358
Location: Lincoln
|
I agree with Richard here. I've had one or 2 emails (from those already trained) and numerous comments on courses since Vinnie (from new delegates) under the impression that breaths have been formally removed from the protocol. Whilst compression only CPR is effective, it is only effective for probably less than 5 minutes after which we simply recycle deoxygenated blood in and out of the heart muscle, however for the lay untrained responder it is better than nothing.
For those who have been trained it is highly recommended we try and get some oxygen into the lungs (unable and unwilling clause apart). Without dragging out the 2010 protocols I believe HCP's are positively urged to attempt EAV
Paul
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 01/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 8
Points: 30
Location: United Kingdom
|
Marty
I have not said anywhere I am confused or compounding any confusion, as Jon Acc states it is those who do not understand the Resus Council Protocols as we do are appearing confussed may be it is only one or two or is it more wide spread?
I do support the campaign but with a little thought they could in that 40secs put something like a written strap line at the bottom of the screen
'Those trained in mouth to mouth should continue to do so unless unable/unwilling'
Vinnie actualy says something similar to 'no need to do mouth to mouth you only kiss your misus'
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 780
Points: 2,358
Location: Lincoln
|
Following is a question and answer from the BHF regarding the 'Vinnie' approach (sent to me by a colleague). Really just confirms what we thought, protocol for untrained responders only, but also I would suggest confirming some confusion which is held by members of the public Q.
Can you provide me with the evidence to show how 'Compression only CPR' is more effective than the 30:2 required and recommended by the ECoR and UK Resus Council? I am a FAAW instructor and teach the 30:2. I now have people with no former skills or knowledge questioning my training and knowledge based these new adverts! It is my belief that compression only CPR is effective for no more than 5 minutes, could you clarify?
A.
Thank you for your email and your response to our current hands-only CPR campaign. The hands-only CPR message is directed at the untrained general public. There are appalling survival rates from out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in the UK. Less than 10 per cent of casualties survive to leave hospital, and yet many cardiac arrests are witnessed by members of the public. We have to try and improve those survival rates while facing the reality that most people don’t know how to give cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR). Research shows people are more likely to start CPR if they only have to carry out Hands-only CPR on a casualty. CPR with rescue breaths should remain the gold standard but if someone is untrained, or unsure about how to give rescue breaths and chest compressions, Hands-only CPR is still more likely to increase a casualty’s chance of survival. For anyone who has undertaken training such as the First Aid at Work course, we are informing them that they should follow their training. This will provide the very best chance of survival for the casualty. What we are trying to avoid is bystanders taking no action and the casualty suffering as a consequence. We have consulted the Resuscitation Council (UK) on the campaign who have supported the message of compression-only CPR if the rescuer is untrained or unwilling to do rescue breaths. I have tried to call you a couple of times today but you have been unavailable. If you would like to discuss any further, please don’t hesitate to contact me on the number below. Kind regards, Sarah Community Resuscitation Project Officer 0207 554 0363 bhf.org.uk
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Rank: Member Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 17/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 18
Points: 54
Location: United Kingdom
|
HI All
Once again a very interesting discussion. Personally I think it would be great if CPR and general First Aid was a compulsory subject at school just as other subjects are or maybe as part of the driving test (I took my test many many years ago so if this aready happens dont shout) . I teach Pre schoolers in my day job and they can put me into a recovery position so imagine what older kids could learn to do. But until everyone knows and feels able to deliver First Aid anything that stops us being a WALK ON BY SOCIETY has got to be a good thing.
Haven`t had anyone bring up the Vinnie thingy as yet but feel sure it will come up soon especially as I am training a group of 21 year olds from the local football team next week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,270
Points: 3,810
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
|
Doing a requal course today
Guess what when we got to the 2010 resus update "No that's wrong. According to the TV, we don't do breaths any more". Cue explanations and time used up unnecessarily on an already tight timetable which could have been avoided if the target audience had been made clearer.
If it's any help to people, I use the analogy of a car fuel pump that packs up. There will still be some fuel in the system that keeps the car going a short while. When that is exhausted, the car is dead
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15
Points: 45
Location: UK
|
Oxygen therapy and drug therapy is being de-emphasised in prehospital care.
here are survivals after a considerable amount of time with CC-BLS. Medic One, Seattle USA and SECAMB here in the Uk have been at the forefront of such things as protocol C and public CC-BLS for a number of years and their results are quite phenomenal. Especially Medic One.
Cerebral deficit due to poor oxygenation has been reviewed since 2002 and we now know that 'brain death' has more to do with massive release of calcium on ROSC and cerebral tissue increasing in temperature. Hence some of the more advanced systems are now cooling the brain down and administering Magnesium (calcium channel blocker)
CC-BLS is effective if the compressions are consistent even over periods of time which exceed 5 minutes. However if the rescuer/s are able to do full CPR with limited off chest transitions then it is good to do. As long as off chest does not exceed 10 seconds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 27/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 108
Points: 339
Location: Lancashire
|
I agree with most of the comments on here. I am very glad the the BHF has such high profile support and that they are getting the message out there but it is causing problems for FAAW trainers. We have a team of 10 trainers who train our own staff, most of whom work with the less desirable members of the public and now each course starts with the conversation about giving rescue breaths or not as most of them don't want to do it. I know they don't have to anyway but at present, they still have to assessed on it and many of them don't even want to do that. It is just another point for Mr. Know It All and Mr. Argumenitive to pick up on.
That said, I fully support the BHF, if is wasn't for them, I would not be here to write this anyway!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 100
Points: 300
|
Originally Posted by: Wiccan  ........each course starts with the conversation about giving rescue breaths or not as most of them don't want to do it. I know they don't have to anyway....... Oh yes they do - the BHF advert is aimed at LAY PEOPLE who have not recieved training; however where training has been given - certainly where the training meets a statutory requirements (FAW / EFAW) - those people have an obligation to and should carry out rescue breaths.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 27/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 108
Points: 339
Location: Lancashire
|
Originally Posted by: marmite Originally Posted by: Wiccan ........each course starts with the conversation about giving rescue breaths or not as most of them don't want to do it. I know they don't have to anyway....... Oh yes they do - the BHF advert is aimed at LAY PEOPLE who have not recieved training; however where training has been given - certainly where the training meets a statutory requirements (FAW / EFAW) - those people have an obligation to and should carry out rescue breaths. Thanks, am well aware of who the advert is aimed at. Think you may ahve taken my remarks the wrong way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 22/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2
Points: 6
Location: United Kingdom
|
I too have been a victim of 'Vinnie Jones doesn't do it that way and I never liked the idea of giving breaths anyhow' in a recent refresher course. I did find that quoting the US Resus Council research (400 pigs -200 no breaths with compression 200 mouth to snout with compression - more pigs with breaths survived (just)) which was described by the Chair of the UK Resus Council at last year's RYA First Aid Trainer's conference did the job. Yes it burnt 10 minutes, but I actually think it helped people understand better why they were doing what they were doing and why we still teach breaths (it also gave people a bit of a laugh to think of giving mouth to snout!).
Nick
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 27/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 108
Points: 339
Location: Lancashire
|
Compression-only CPR Studies have shown that compression-only CPR may be as effective as combined ventilation and compression in the first few minutes after non-asphyxial arrest. However, chest compression combined with rescue breaths is the method of choice for CPR by trained lay rescuers and professionals and should be the basis for lay-rescuer education. Lay rescuers who are unable or unwilling to provide rescue breaths, should be encouraged to give chest compressions alone. When advising untrained laypeople by telephone, ambulance dispatchers should give instruction on compression-only CPR.
Direct quote form Resuscitation Council UK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 261
Points: 783
|
I used the mouth to snout story today....... yep it got me a laugh or 2, cheers Nick
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15
Points: 45
Location: UK
|
I hope you don't mind me asking...
Does current FA teaching protocols suggest CPS 30:2 and defib as soon as possible or 3 minutes of CPR (chest compression only OR 30:2) followed by defib (if indicated).
cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 27/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 108
Points: 339
Location: Lancashire
|
Ho pond life. Guidelines are fast recognition, fast CPR, fast defib, fast advanced care. The quicker the better. Every minute wasted on scene takes 10% off the already low chances of survival. The is often referred to as The Chain of Survial. Hope that helps. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member Groups: Registered, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 23/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15
Points: 45
Location: UK
|
Thanks Wiccan,
Good to know where we stand
We did have a time for past few years of doing 2 minutes CPR before first defib - thank heavens we have gone back to the old ways
cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 27/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 27
Points: 81
Location: North Lancashire
|
Hi Pond Life et al
As I understand, when we decide that the casualty is unresponsive and not breathing normally, we send for the AED at the same time as calling for the ambulance. We then begin CPR and continue this until the point where the AED arrives and while it is applied to the patient if we have a helper who can do this while we keep doing CPR.
We stop the CPR to apply the AED ourselves if we have no such helper.
So, while we might well do some CPR while the AED is being fetched and connected, there is no requirement to do a fixed period of CPR before using the AED. If the AED is immediately available, I understand that we proceed straight to using it with no CPR.
Am I correct folks?
What do you folks think is the advice for a completely lone rescuer who has no AED nearby but who knows it is in the Office, say a minute away at the other end of the building? Rescuer has a mobile phone. Should they make the call on the hoof while going for the AED? OR Make the call, stay with patient, and start CPR while waiting for the ambulance and their AED?
And what if they have no mobile? Rare these days but it happens .....?
ps this forum about Vinnie is great. Some of the discussions on the Youtube Forum, though, are fascinating?
Stay Alive!
002
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Forum_Moderators, Registered Users, Subscribers
Joined: 25/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 199
Points: 606
|
Originally Posted by: pjb002
As I understand, when we decide that the casualty is unresponsive and not breathing normally, we send for the AED at the same time as calling for the ambulance. We then begin CPR and continue this until the point where the AED arrives and while it is applied to the patient if we have a helper who can do this while we keep doing CPR.
We stop the CPR to apply the AED ourselves if we have no such helper.
So, while we might well do some CPR while the AED is being fetched and connected, there is no requirement to do a fixed period of CPR before using the AED. If the AED is immediately available, I understand that we proceed straight to using it with no CPR.
Wow, somebody looks like they have actually read the Resus Council guidelines. Good on you 002.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|